How climate change could be a factor in UK free trade deal
Six weeks into free trade talks between New Zealand and the United Kingdom, Stuff sat down with British High Commissioner Laura Clarke to talk about food exports and climate change. [Weve edited the interview for length]. How might climate change come into a trade deal? Theres a couple of areas: {were interested in) how you use trade agreements to advance research and development, how do you use it to push green growth and businesses and industries focussed on green growth... and were interested in looking at the provisions New Zealand has set out in its Agreement on Climate Change, Trade and Sustainability for reducing tariffs on environmental goods, removing subsidies on fossil fuels, and making sure there is correct eco-labelling. We are really trying to use these agreements to progress our [Paris Agreement] commitments. Ive heard people say that if New Zealand doesnt cut agricultural emissions, it will affect our ability to negotiate trade agreements with the EU and the UK. Do you see trade as being conditional on that? Its a really big challenge for New Zealand, and we acknowledge that agricultural emissions are a bigger proportion of New Zealands overall emissions than they are of the UKs emissions. But we have got, volumetrically, much more methane and agricultural emissions than New Zealand does. Whats interesting is that we have legislated for net zero emissions for all emissions and New Zealand has its Zero Carbon Act with a [different target] for methane. Thats something we talk about and are very interested in. I wouldnt want to suggest we were thinking about conditionality. Do you think there is buy-in for New Zealands idea that we can have separate targets for methane and carbon dioxide, rather than getting to net zero for all gases? Tricky territory. I would just say the UKs position is that we have legislated for net zero greenhouse gas emissions. We are keen to work with countries all over the world that have as ambitious NDCs (Paris targets) as possible). Dont get me wrong, I think New Zealand has done an extraordinary job with the Zero Carbon Act and has set in place a mechanism by which that ambition on the agricultural side can be increased. Youve got provision drawing on the expertise of the Climate Change Commission -- to increase ambition on methane, and to me that is a very sensible way forward. Its important we dont let the best be the enemy of the good. We each take an approach that suits our own political and economic conditions. What benefits do you think might come out of a deal? Whats clear is that the world is going to need more food. So if you can manage it so that its not a competition --- between either your Waikato lamb farmer or your Welsh lamb farmer -- and you are selling into third countries from these two countries that have similar standards and regulations and quality product [but different growth seasons], you could get a really good arrangement to supply third countries... all year round. The UK successfully cut emissions using a Zero Carbon Act and a Climate Change Commission, before New Zealand tried it. New Zealanders sometimes argue it was easier for the UK, because it had so much coal-fired energy to cut. But the UK has done quite a bit on transport and put a deadline on phasing out petrol vehicles. How has that gone down with people? Youre right that weve done a huge amount in terms of transport infrastructure, and a huge amount to encourage research and development, and move to electric vehicles and a huge amount on housing. As we recover from Covid, were putting $5.5 billion into energy efficiency of homes and public buildings. So, yes, theres the low-hanging fruit, but theres also medium-hanging fruit that is not that hard, like making houses energy-efficient and having energy labelling on houses, and making sure you do transition to electric vehicles. Many Kiwis would say UK houses are already models of warmth and efficiency compared to ours... Well, you say that, but continental Europeans say we have really draughty houses. Germany and the Netherlands have had much better-insulated houses than us, and weve been catching up. I bought a little house in Hackney in my mid-twenties that had really draughty windows. Do you have any insight into why it's been so hard to get policies across the line in New Zealand, such as boosting electric vehicles? In the UK, we have scale, and a domestic car industry to invest in, so its more readily available. You sometimes come across the argument in New Zealand that, We are such a tiny fraction of emissions, it doesnt make a difference, and why should we, when every week a new coal-fired power station is coming online somewhere else in the world? No-one said, with tackling Covid, What difference does it make if I don't bother to do social distancing or obey lockdown, everyone understood the importance of individual action and small community actions, and that it all adds up to a whole. Its a field day for behavioural scientists to look at what can you learn from Covid and apply that to the big challenge of tackling climate change. Whats New Zealands medium-hanging fruit on climate change? Building efficiency, cars and road transport, freight, shipping. I noted the Climate Change Commission was really interested in New Zealand replacing the Interislanders [with greener options] because shipping emissions are really large.